Slaughter and May has closed training contract applications to non-law students early while those studying law still have time to apply for a place on the firm’s 2011-12 intake.
Graham White
The City law firm has confirmed to Lawyer2B.com that the number of trainees it is planning to recruit for 2011-12 will remain unchanged at approximately 95.
However, Slaughters has conceded that it has been forced to close applications from non-law students earlier than in previous years.
The firm’s executive partner Graham White told Lawyer2B.com: “The number and quality of applications we had from non-law students this year has been extraordinary.
“We’ve therefore decided to close applications from non-law students for 2011 for the moment – this is slightly earlier than in previous years. We thought it wasn’t fair to drag people through interviews knowing that we wouldn’t be able to make offers to them at the moment.”
He added: “We can’t fill all our vacancies with non-law students leaving no places for the law students who we cannot interview for the moment.”
Under Solicitors Regulation Authority rules law firms are not permitted to offer penultimate year law students training contracts until 1 September.
Similarly, Clifford Chance has stopped accepting applications from non-law students and is currently reviewing how many law students it should recruit for 2011-12.
A message on the magic circle firm’s graduate recruitment website reads: “Due to an increase in strong applications this year for training contracts we’ve come closer to filling our positions earlier than expected.
“As a result of this, we’ll no longer be running any training contract assessment centres until later this year in late August and September.”
Lovells, meanwhile, has already decided not to accept fresh applications for trainees hoping to join the firm in 2011, although the firm does still have vacancies for training contracts starting in 2012. The move follows the firm’s decision to defer the start dates of its Autumn 2009 and Spring 2010 trainee intakes.
Non Law Graduates
If you’re going to study law then why go to MMU?! This just goes to show that old polytechnics are just that and should never have been named universities in the first place!
stupid
If you’re going to study law then why go to MMU?! This just goes to show that old polytechnics are just that and should never have been named universities in the first place!
Unfair
S&M aren’t saying they won’t recruit non-law graduates, they are closing the application process now for this year, so they can give law graduates proper consideration later on this year when they are allowed to.
Everyone seems to think however, that there is a straight choice between non-law degree and law degree which is a nonsense. I did Law and German and there are lots of unis providing mixed-discipline degrees – law and languages, sociology, politics etc. For me, that’s the best option, no CPE/GDL (therefore no fees) but getting to do something other than law at uni. Getting a wider perspective has to be a good thing.
law v non-law
S&M aren’t saying they won’t recruit non-law graduates, they are closing the application process now for this year, so they can give law graduates proper consideration later on this year when they are allowed to.
Everyone seems to think however, that there is a straight choice between non-law degree and law degree which is a nonsense. I did Law and German and there are lots of unis providing mixed-discipline degrees – law and languages, sociology, politics etc. For me, that’s the best option, no CPE/GDL (therefore no fees) but getting to do something other than law at uni. Getting a wider perspective has to be a good thing.
Read
S&M aren’t saying they won’t recruit non-law graduates, they are closing the application process now for this year, so they can give law graduates proper consideration later on this year when they are allowed to.
Everyone seems to think however, that there is a straight choice between non-law degree and law degree which is a nonsense. I did Law and German and there are lots of unis providing mixed-discipline degrees – law and languages, sociology, politics etc. For me, that’s the best option, no CPE/GDL (therefore no fees) but getting to do something other than law at uni. Getting a wider perspective has to be a good thing.
Cost
If only it were only 9.
Understandable
I wonder if the economic climate has inflated Kaplans Law School LPC and GDL prices by £300 for 2009 and 2010??
Non law grads
“…Indeed, I found it quite endearing and admired them for their open mindedness and free thinking.”
What, so you’re surprised by people who actually wish to shun the superficial glamour of City Commercial firms?
These aspects that you find so “endearing” that people are actually interested in, are at the root and sole of our social fabric. They are the areas in which we – as individuals – seek advice on at a personal level. The way you tout commercial law as the be-all and end-all, is a poignant illustration of how the pursuit of a career in law, today, is principally motivated by a desire to be at the heart of an economic industry, and not – as the custodians of justice solicitors are supposed to be – at the service of people in need of advice. Shame. I find it a sad situation that today’s aspiring lawyers are more concerned with the image of being a ‘dealmaker’ rather than being a problem-solver. And you, madam, are but adding fuel to the fire by acting surprised that students wish to pursue careers which are more rewarding in other terms than financial alone. Shame. Perhaps your publication would benefit from devoting more time to other areas of law than the derivatives of big ticket commercial law. Then again, perhaps you do not possess the intellectual impetus to venture out of the comfort of commercial into situations where people’s interests, lives and well-being
are at stake, rather than the faceless millions of some corporate mastodon. Reflect the true values of this once proud profession.
Non-law graduates rejected
why do people(lawyers) have a natural proclivity to think that they where smarter at that age than that person!!!!
Mary
English Undergrad, I was enjoying reading what appeared to be a well reasoned, sensible comment until you went and spoilt it by making 2 silly, unfounded and absolute statements: “Doing a subject outside of law allows one a breadth and depth that law students do not have. My verbal reasoning, analytical and essay-writing skills are superior to those of law students.” Studying a non-law subject does not magically turn a one-dimensional person into one with “breadth and depth”, nor are all law students without those qualities. It just means that the non-law student will know more about political theory/Shakespeare/knitting (depending of what they studied). As pointed out below, many law students study for joint degrees that include languages, business studies or politics. Also, do you really mean to suggest that your verbal reasoning, analytical and essay-writing skills are better that ALL law students? Bright you may be (as most people at top firms/sets tend to be), but that sort of arrogance will not do you any favours with your superiors or peers once you enter practice.
Non Law Grads
I would just like to say that the comments made by Walter unfairly detracted away from the majority of students at the University that work extremely hard to achieve the best they can. I should also refer the person that commented about polytechnics providing law degrees to the fact that the exam discussed in this article was actually at the Business School and not the Law School. A very distinct difference!! I also think it’s fair to say that Walter’s comments fail to take into account the students that do work hard for their degrees and also if he feels so strongly about the route the University is taking perhaps he should consider his position and future with MMU!
Stick up for non-law grads
The lawyers who have not undertaken a law degree are not properly trained. This is evidenced by the poor quality of many of the trainees and junior lawyers in this country. Just as degrees in English, History and basket weaving do not qualify people to be doctors, they also do not qualify people to be lawyers. The sooner the profession wakes up to this the better it will be for the quality of service given by the profession.
Are we reading the same article?
I am greatly disapopointed that Walter Cairns has branded Man Met students as lazy. He appears to tar us all with the same brush with this comment and I would also like to point out that his comments refer to the business school and not the law school. I hope that he has considered the effect of his widely publicised comments on applications to this unversity. I know many people will be greatly discouraged from coming to this institution as a whole not just the business and law schools. I am proud to say I study at Man Met and this just gives ammunition to other universities who are of the ignorant opinion that they are any better than us.
Timing
Franklin, that is ridiculous. Explain to me how, for example, a corporate merger or acquisition has no impact on people’s “interests, lives and well being”? Employment contracts and pension schemes are just two considerations. Simply because the client walking through the door isn’t an individual charged with a crime or someone going through a tough divorce does not mean that commercial law impacts on “corporate mastodons” alone. The work commercial and corporate lawyers do facilitates almost everything we as individuals do on a daily basis. I always thought respect for each other to be a fairly important value amongst lawyers, and this value is something you clearly seem to lack. If you have such a hatred for commercial law and practice, as well as this publication, what are you doing here, commenting on articles?
The debate’s good, but it’s not right
Funny that you dont mention the near 15 million that Freshfields made advising Northern Rock itself as well as in part the BoE.
Slaughter’s choice
He was a plateau partner at A&O – very pricey. Given work in that particular area is dead it’s probably not such a disaster that he’s left the firm.
Attention to detail
Secondments seem like quite a good idea and would be a good chance to get some much needed experience.
Diverse and proud?
A number of firms actually feel that if you have studied a degree such as civil engineering, medicine, biochemistry and the like then in a number of practice areas you are more likely to have a closer affinity to the business of your clients than those who have been legal purists throughout their education. Given the more multinational nature of practice in the larger firms, modern languages are seen to be a bit of a bonus as well. Seeking to draw a distinction beween law and non-law graduates is, ultimately, a stale debate. Drawing a distinction between people who can work well alongside their clients and those who can’t is a much more interesting angle. We all know of lawyers who are technical wizards but shouldn’t be allowed to run a bath let alone a meeting with a client (or a firm come to that).
Wrong end of the stick
It seems to be one bad news story after another for FFW these days. One noticeable thing about this firm is that they don’t seem to be axing their under-performing partners. Until their management plucks up the courage to do so, there will be more stories like this as associates continue to pay the price.
Hard work should pay!
People may look at this as strange. I look at this as peculiar.
Sathianathan’s debate is not good, nor is it right
You do not have to have high grades or be an academic or what some many classify as “intelligent” to be a fantastic lawyer.
Some of the best lawyers I know are very well rounded, lateral thinking, commercial advisors who get their clients where they want to be using every tool at their disposal.
The legal profession has evolved considerably over the last few decades and people from different backgrounds with different educations and different experiences who previously would not have become lawyers now are. That is a very good thing for the profession which is evolving and becoming more accessible.
Measuring IQs from a sample or even all current lawyers and then averging it against those taken a few decades ago is no measure of the ability of those in the profession to be good at their jobs and provide execllent service for their clients.
non law grads
I feel that a lot of Kent based solicitors will sympathise with this. I understand that Field Grieb and others of the Kent Magic Circle are looking to find a consensus based solution. Lets just pray they get it right.
crazy
All hail to the best litigation firm in Europe and Asia.
Oxbridge vs The Rest
This is old hat. These strategies have been used for years now by more responsive and market driven Firms such as Herbies and Field Grieb. The real question is what the market does next.
if i were a partner of my own law firm…
hammonds always look after their trainees and this is a very decent gesture in a touch economic climate.
Law Graduates & Non Law Graduates
I went to a private school and as soon as I was out went to an average uni and got a 2.2. Then did the BVC, just missed a VC and am now not enjoying life… unsurprisingly. If I had put in the effort at uni I would perhaps be in a better position, but that is a story for another day. My point is that if you are dedicated to what you do and are successful as a result it does not matter how you got to where you are. I did LLB Law and enjoyed about 2 modules out of the many I did. I wish I had done something I truly enjoyed – something that would have motivated me more. My sister did the conversion course and is a very talented lawyer. Would the world of law be deprived without her? I believe so.
Those that knock the conversion course are just jealous of those that have thus far followed their passions, or ignorant of the test endured by those who undertake the conversion course in the first place.
Re: Oxbridge being a free dinner ticket into city firms – sure it helps but so does having personality.
I think these open days are great and I wish my school could have directed me to something like this early on when I expressed a wish to become a lawyer, rather than not giving a stuff what I did. I think having the right guidance as a youngster and having events like this are a superb aid.
Back to my first point, which is unrelated – If you have a 2.2 in Law or anything else please don’t do the LPC or the BVC. If you have ambition and dreams of making it big you will be severely disappointed. Unless of course, you are willing to graft and then graft some more to drag yourselves to the same level of your peers who got a 2.1.
Here’s to the future …. ‘Cheers & good luck to all ;-)’
Non-law
Kent and Magic Circle, an oxymoron is ever I heard one!
Applications from non-law grads.
It seems there are several myths being given a good airing here: a) students who study law at uni are more committed: really? Have you tried learning Russian grammar? That’s commitment. b) students who study law have committed financially to their career: give over, a non-law student will face fees of around £6k on top of the costs of their first degree. c) you don’t see doctors who’ve done a conversion course: actually, you do. On top of a three year degree, you can study for 4 years on a Medicine Graduate Course, taking 7 years to get to the same point as a straight medicine graduate (normally 5.5-6yrs), so actually, that’s only 1 or 1.5 years longer than usual. Not so different to law after all. d) law students work harder than anyone else: don’t be daft – people who care about their studies work harder than people who don’t regardless of subject. e) non-law graduates going in to law have more breadth, depth or experience: not automatically true, life experience, common sense, commercial awareness and initiative are not degree dependant. They’re not even age dependant – some people never become competitively employable, no matter how many letters they acquite after their names.
Neither route into law is automatically easier or better than the other. I should imagine that experience of work in the banking sector is probaby more useful in the S&M office than extensive knowledge of renvoi. I may be wrong, but I doubt that S&M are not going to make the most of the current crop of career changers – they’d be studpid not to. However, cutting down the workload for HR/recruitment seems like a sensible idea – there are only so many applications that people can process. They might lose some great applicants, but in the number they must have already received there are bound to be a few gems.
Queue Jumpers
is dying a death in the UK
At Last…
Nigel Boardman – a partner at Slaughter and May and one of the most respected and outstanding lawyers in the country – studied History at Bristol.
Those complaining about law firms recruiting graduates from non-law backgrounds really do not know what they are talking about.
A few bitter law students then…
I agree, to comment that commercial law is simply superficial is incorrect. Commercial law underpins so much of what we take for granted. Do you think you could even get a simple cup of coffee in the morning if lawyers hadn’t been involved in constructing contracts for coffee houses near tube stations? Do you think the food you buy from supermarkets is delivered to the shelves all packaged, pretty and ok-ed for consumption without watertight commercial and IP law? I admire the respect you show for family and criminal law and the way you so eloquently describe how it is essential to our social harmony. But I would suggest calming down a bit Franklin, and not biting one of the other hands that feeds you…
Some people need to read the article properly
I really don’t see what value a law graduate can bring to a client. We’re talking here about people who aren’t even trainees.
English Undergrad
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Wider perspective
You’re hilarious! I know I shouldn’t entertain the fantasies of your sick mind, but I can’t help but feel the need to find out how deep your dilusions really run. From your spiteful tone, I would guess that you tried to get a job at a “monolithic City Firm”, but they rejected you, causing you to create this delusional “Kent Magic Circle” to placate your obviously inlfated ego. I suggest you take another pill, have a good lay down, and the nice men in white suits will come by with your jumper with the extra-long arms very shortly…..
mythbusting
Ignore this wack job. He was peddling the same BS on another thread about this “Kent Magic Circle” and his ficticious firm. Utter rubbish.
Some of the best lawyers in the business studied non-law degrees…
Walter is right in saying standards of admission are pretty dire at MMU. Just a few weeks ago I overheard a lecturer for some computing or management course telling her students that there was an additional 5 marks to be had for their summer examinations for presentation and structure and that theoretically one would be able to get 105% on the exam paper (although it would then be reduced to 100%). In my time at MMU I have rarely come across anyone studious and my learning experience has been greatly affected by others that persist to talk during the course of lectures. There is nowhere in the university for students to have peace and quiet because the library and computer rooms are full of idiots who do neither understand the concepts of silence nor study. That being said, I would say the standards of the actual LLB degree are pretty high (last year only 2% of students were awarded a first class degree compared to 10% for other modules). Of course, you get your fair share of bad students but the majority of them (over half) will only get a 2:2 or below. As for Walter Cairn’s teaching abilities. The man tries hard, but he is often saddled with the most boring and tedious of subjects and that is often reflected in the attendance and subsequent poor exam performance.
Please stop the bitterness!
Where some concern does exist for the children of famous people, a line ought to be drawn that would say that the same very famous people, courting fame, would surely be able to secure some security for private activities. Being in a stroller, on a public street is surely not that private. If this decision is left to stand, the question of ‘who is famous’ and therefore their children are subject to special privacy rules. So, for example, where a famous person’s child at a sporting venue and who happens to be caught on camera, would the subject matter in the foreground (or background) be lost due to the expectation of privacy from these privilaged few (how few?)
Yawn
Some of you law students seem to be forgetting that some non-lawyers decided to become solicitors before they went to university but just wanted to study something different because they had the choice. I don’t think this demonstrates a lack of commitment at all; theory and practice are two very different things.
I am a History student on track for a first class degree from a top university and do not see why I should be shunned from the legal profession because I am a non-lawyer. And before I recieve stupid comments such as “your subject is easy” which is not true, I am also doing a law module this year and currently am on track for top of the year. Stop blaming non-lawyers for your inability to recieve a TC, just do lots of applications and keep perservering!! I often get annoyed at the bankers for suddenly deciding to change to law, it doesnt seem fair but at the end of the day, there is nothing that I can do about it so I’m just trying to improve my applications.
GDL v QLD
To Anonymous@12.06: the reason that firms want people without law degrees is that those with law degrees are extremely dull people. If those without one really were poorly trained, why would firms continue to hire them? That is clearly wrong. What is clear, however, is that they don’t take law degrees very seriously.
Are you bitter that while those with degree in English or History broadened their minds and developed interests outside making money, you studied something very dull that is also pointless? That would be understandable. But don’t worry, you can still read good books in your free time.
yawn yawn
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my view
Quality result for Herbies!
Response to Lionel Hutz
Quality result for Herbies!
pathetic
From the perspective of a sole practitioner this seems to me wholly unsurprising. I find that if I extrapolate my earnings over the past year and multiply those by the number of partners at Slaughter and May, my income is broadly in the same band as the average partner at Slaughters. Undoubtedly my cost base is less but my profit margin would seem to be the same. Working on the high street without all those expensive buildings may be the way forward. And I can still cycle to work and have a proper lunch most days.
anonymous response to Lionel Hutz
Nothing could be more divisive of the profession. From a Kent perspective, we have exactly the same issues as the gigantic City Firms and we try to resolve them in the same way. Really this emphasis on the City all the time is a total irritant to those of us trying to bring in the next big case.
YAWN
With Rachel Hatfield resigning, will Hugh Verrier finally see sense? And resign???
Learn to read
Personally I have had enough of the these debates between GDL and QLD. To say that English, history degrees etc prepare somebody better is ridiculous. A degree equips people with certain skills regardless of what degree they have done, but to say that a non-law degree prepares you better, is crap!!! Some idiot down below wrote that because she has an english degree she can write better essay’s. What is this person smoking?? I have an LL.B and LL.M, having written a 25,000 disertation. I got a distinction in my LLM. I didn’t get that because I can’t write an essay!! Law students write essays on complex and new areas of law. They can write as good as english students. In fact most law students did english for a level!!!!!!! Just because we don’t read James Joyce and ponder the meaning of life doesn’t mean we can’t write essays. Bottom line, GDL people know that their degree isn’t quite as academically challenging or as prestigious as a LAw degree, therefore they adopt this militant stance, and try to bring law degrees down. Completely pathetic. I know people who did the GDL and they are quite frankly a pack of donkeys. This is not true for all GDL types, but some are very weak at law. In fact, it sens a shudder down my spine to think that they will be solicitors. SO LISTEN GDL TYPES, JUST ADMIT THAT LAW IS A BETTER DEGREE AND PREPARES YOU SLIGHTLY BETTER FOR PRACTICE. JUST DROP THE IGNORANT, OBNOXIOUS, MILITANT STANCE YOU TAKE.
Commitment?
… Honestly! You obviously aren’t serious about a career in law in the first place if you are only concerned with how lawyer’s are seen in the City. Why don’t you quit the idea of law altogether and try working as a priest instead?
Goodbyekitty
Oh dear….I just wrote a comment about their militantcy, and here true to form, good old Lionel Hutz proves my point. What a laughable little character. I did an LLB and an LLM. I will openly admit that I love law. Some English types might think that makes me a dull person, but I am really not, nor are any of my friends who did law. They are among some of the most funny and eccentric people I have ever met!! My mum is an English teacher, and she told me that unless I wanted to teach that I shouldn’t waste my time on these sorts of degrees. Come on you idiot, how is a law degree pointless????????????????? What relevance does your english degree have in the real world. It is even more pointless!! Broadened your mind, pah. Typical English type, incredibly pretentious. Go read ulysses and ponder the meaning of your existence. You are far too airy fairy to be a lawyer.
The GDL
For proving that English students really do have a better command of the English language than Law grads.
Directionless debate
Chill out!!
Franklin, believe or not, commercial law is interesting. Well I find it interesting. There are some people who are not excited about doing property, family or crime. Likewise, there are those who who find being in a corporate environment repulsive. Each to their own.
“…but soon realised that by aspiring to work as a family or criminal lawyer didn’t make the students less interesting or ambitious. Indeed, I found it quite endearing and admired them for their open mindedness and free thinking.” – very patronising!
I am lucky enough to have a TC. The editor’s comments do not help candidates. She makes out that is it doomsday. It is not. Those who are looking and reading this, listen to me – There ARE TC places available, plenty. IT IS possible to get a TC. All is needed is very hard work, a strategy and belief. Nothing is handed to you on a plate so get your butt into action!
still YAWN
I read law. I thought it was fairly dull at the time as it was not taken in the context of practice. This doesn’t make me dull. It has been helpful to me in practice when I am faced with unusual issues – in allowing me to identify particular concepts at a considerable depth which could then be re-explored during the problem solving phase for clients. Perhaps I would have enjoyed a non-law subject more – but I doubt this would have made me better or worse – certainly not more interesting as a person or more receptive to commerciality (I think work experience in non law areas could play a part in this though). As a recuiter – I do not distinguish between law and non-law graduates. Most law graduates are not suitably confident in the depth of knowledge that is taught / read during a degree that they do not need to re-read/ learn the princple at hand.
LLB -v- GDL
Dear Lionel, in response to your comment, I have a BSc, an LLB and an LLM. I practice IP law which allows me to use the knowledge I gained in all of my studies. It means I know the science in relation to the technology I am dealing with and I know the law as it applies to that technology. If I had wanted to be a historian I would have studied history, an English professor I would have studied English and so on. To be able to work in a field you have to know it and a pathetically inadequate two year conversion course is not a sufficient basis for a career in the law or in fact in any profession. As to why firms in the UK hire people who are so poorly trained, ask why firms in other more advanced countries do not.
Goodbyekitty
Ok, if you think that the style in which I have written on this forum is in some way indicative of one’s command of the English language, then you are very sadly mistaken. I have 9a* in my gcse’s, 4 a’s at a level, a 2.1 LLB and an LLM with distinction. Now, I know people who do english are pretty dim, but I didn’t achieve this by having a poor command of my mother tongue. One does not write their thesis in the same style as they use to wind up GDL tinkers. Ah you lot are hilarious. It’s ok, I understand, you did a rubbish degree, and you are bitter, I would be bitter too if I had done a mickey mouse degree, but really, there is no need to take your bittermess out on somebody who completely eclipses you academically. Therefore, I shan’t lament too much over my poor command of the english language. Anyway, got to get back to my training contract. hopefully I won’t get sacked for my poor command of the English Language. LOL.
The poor relation
Why exactly are their two recruitment processes, one for law graduates and one for non-law graduates? It’s almost like a form of discrimination whereby the two aren’t allowed to compete against each other yet are applying for the same position.
war of the kitties
If you want money first, stay with the City or try something else. If you are genuinely interested in law, go to the provinces where you should be trained round the office, discover what you like doing, and get retained if you are any good at it. In a 5-10 partner provincial practice you should get a chance to try everything except heavy corporate, and you will have real flesh and blood clients. Those are far more awkward demanding and eccentric than coprporates, and pay far less, but the satisfaction in helping them cannot be matched by any big bucks I know. Down side, half the income or less, but hey, its cheaper out here!
bees are buzzing
If you want to sell your soul to the City then it’s up to you. But take it from someone who has been there and done it – you will be miserable and you will be worked to death with very little job satisfaction. And even though you do get paid well you’ll never have time the to spend it.
bees knees
It amazes me what planet some law students live on!!
So your criteria is whether the City is glamourous or not? Forget glamour and get real.
Focus on an area of law you are interested in. If you are not sure, your TC will help you decide as you will have experience in 4 different areas. So apply to firms with a wide range of practice areas.
If money is tight then go for a City TC at a firm with a strong corporate and private client base.