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Lawyer 2B shows A-level students the way

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    "Seventeen-year-old Danielle Nash from St Charles Sixth Form College in West London said: “I was surprised to find out that you don’t need to study law to become a lawyer. It’s better because if you don’t actually want to study law you can study something that you enjoy and then get a really good grade.”"

    In other words you can study something easy, probably golf course management, to get a first or two one then take a pathetically easy conversion course (no doubt funded by a law firm that thinks having someone with a degree in knitting will show their diversity) and become a lawyer, overstepping people who studied law.

    And if you want to study something 'you enjoy' instead of law, hence suggesting you don't enjoy law, then why should you want to be a lawyer?

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  • Re Blatant Abuse

    Firstly, you show your ignorance by assuming that studying law at degree level in some way prepares you to become a lawyer. Comparing the academic study of law at degree level and practising law as a professional is like saying being able to write prepares you for a career as a journalist. Academic study and the practical professional experience are two totally different things.

    In addition even if you did Golf Course Management and then managed somehow to pass the CPE, trust me you will have earned your right to go on and study the LPC or BVC as its an horrendous exam, I should know I took it and I am now a solicitor.

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  • BlatantAbuse

    I found the academic study of law tedious, but thoroughly enjoy being a lawyer in practice. I know many who feel the same. With the benefit of hindsight, I would probably read modern languages or PPE and convert, though I'll grant that Knitting has it advantages...

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  • GDL v LLB

    I have to say that I agree with blantant abuse. Tis a tad ridiculous that somebody who wants to supposedly do law would rather do something more enjoyable first. I think anybosy who is actually committed to law would first of all do a law degree. And yes, although an academic law degree is not the same as practice, doing one is harder and more challenging that the GDL. I have an LL.B but I am currently doing land law on the GDL as I studied in N.Ireland and need the english land law as our law is too different. Quite honestly, the GDL does not come close to an LL.B. It lacks detail and is more a general synopsis than an in depth study. Anybody who really wants to do law, will do an LL.B at 18. To succeed at law, you need to be committed and dedicated, and I would kind of doubt how committed GDL types actually are. Seems they realize that that their classics, english degree can't actually get them anywhere, so decide to take shelter under law and bypass those who have done a law degree

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  • RE: Stuart

    And Stuart, are you seriously trying to make out that the GDL exmas are worse that than those for an LLB?????????????? Come on, you have far less to get onto the LPC than those with an LLB. I am sure you are an excellent solicitor, but the GDL is easy and would not have challenged you as much as an LLB.

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  • Choosing careers at 18

    Unfortunate comment by Danielle, but demonstrates the naivety of people at that age. What about the many people who don't know what they want to do for a career at age 18, and make the choice to become a lawyer later, after having done a more general degree? Does that mean they are a worse lawyer?

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  • GDL v LLB

    Valid as the arguments on here are, unless you have done both the GDL and LLB there will always be an element of snobbery and no one will ever be able to compare the two objectively.

    However as someone who did the GDL after qualifying in another profession (surveying) and am now a successful construction lawyer one could argue that 'other routes' into law create more rounded and commercial lawyers.

    Even if the GDL is supposedly an 'easier' route into law, Blatant Abuse's argument that I did 'an easy degree' and then a 'pathetically easy conversion course' is quite simply talking rubbish. Try working, raising a child and completing the GDL to Distinction standard - not easy by any means. Does the client or the senior partner ever ask if you have an LLB or GDL as long as you provide a top service - getting the law right is expected of ALL lawyers - it's what else you bring to the job that distinguishes the top lawyers.

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  • Now Oxbridge need to reach out

    Daniel Harris from Harrow College said: “I always thought that you had to go to Oxford or Cambridge to become a lawyer, but the law firms explained to us that you can go to a normal university and, as long as you do well, you can then go on to become a lawyer.”

    Based on Daniel Harris from Harrow's comment, it sounds like Oxford and Cambridge now need to reach out to show that they are "normal" universities. If these are gifted and talented state educated pupils - isn't this the demographic which Oxford and Cambridge are seeking to attract?

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  • Get real

    I went to Harrow College and did law there and went on to do a law degree. 6 years after leaving with decent A-levels (and 2 years after getting a 2:1), I still have no training contract. My advice to these kids is, get real.

    Going to Oxbridge it is an automatic route to a training contract and I can tell you how hard it is trying to get good grades when there are 30 people in you’re a-level law class – almost impossible. The recruiters shouldn't be telling people that they want a diverse socio-economic intake when there's no way of telling someone's background from the application form and really, they don't want it, they just have to say it.

    At the firm I work in now, there is not one trainee in my department who didn’t go to private school and I'm the only paralegal who went to a state school. Maybe someone should be telling them those facts to save them the bother.

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  • Re: previous posts

    What a lot of nonsense. I could not agree more with Danielle's comments - why study law for three years when it bears absolutely no resemblance to the work you'll do as a lawyer?

    If you are interested in a different area why not study that, simply to become better educated - after all, that is the purpose of a university education.

    I took the PGDL, so must declare an interest - but far from studying golf course management I studied biochmistry at a top 10 rusell group university. I spent many long hours researching, reporting, writing essays, attending lectures and seminars, carrying out my own research - all of which skills have stood me in very good stead as a commercial lawyer of 7 years PQE.

    Of course a degree in leisure and tourism won't ever compare to a more academic discipline - but no-one is claiming that. And HR teams are sophisticated enough to rank a 1st in whatever honours school from a 'new uni' in a very different category from a 2:2 from Oxbridge.
    And in applying for a training contract no-one oversteps another, because no-one is entitled to a job anywhere. If you're a good candidate from a good uni you'll get a TC, whatever subject you studied and whatever classification you achieved.

    Speaking as one now involved in recruitment and assessment of candidates for TCs, it is by and large the students with the PGDL who stand out, partly because they've been motivated enough to swim against the tide of their honours school, instead of simply plodding along the treadmill of law. HelloKitty - not sure it is fair to compare LLB and PGDL exams, after all PGDL is simply a crammer of the key elements. But remember that each entrant to the PGDL has already completed an undergraduate degree themselves, no less challenging and in many cases far more challenging than an LLB, so is no less qualified or equipped to take the LPC.

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  • Don't kid yourself

    Hellokitty and Blatantabuse are slightly deranged... There are a million and one different fields in law and what purpose does Roman Law or Property Law have for a capital markets lawyer?

    The transferable skills learned doing other degrees apply equally well to a legal career, regardless of the actual subject matter, and 99% of what goes on during a law degree or GDL is completely irrelevant when you're in practice...

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  • Why the anti-GDL feeling guys?

    Why do some law graduates resent people coming to the subject a bit later so much? Surely if you like the subject you'll be happy for people to study it (even if it is in the less degree style GDL) - if you are committed and bright surely you'll find a training contract anyway, whatever your background? Surely even if it's not an advantage, it's not a disadvantage to do a LLB?

    Also, I'm sure many of those who have studied an LLB have not gone into practice (most people I know in fact), just as I did a maths degree and (much as I loved it) didn't go into any of the fields typically associated with it. As I temped in different places, and realised my skills, I realised what I wanted to do. Not many people know exactly what they want to do at 18 and why should they?

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  • I have a dream

    Here's to the day when law is taught in primary schools and secondary schools across the land. Then one can know at the age of 16 with absolute certainty that they 'enjoy law'.

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  • Hellokitty

    Hellokitty said she "would kind of doubt how committed GDL types actually are." I did the GDL part time in the evenings while I also had a full time job, and have found that in general, legal employers viewed that as a demonstration of committment to a successful career in law rather that something that cast doubt on it.

    And as for the comment "anyone who really wants to do law will do an LLB at 18", the assumption that everyone's circumstances will allow them to do that demonstrates just the sort of attitude that has limited diversity in law firms in the past.

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  • There is a world outside the law

    Blatantabuse's attitude is extraordinary to anyone outside the law. The rest of us know that there's more to life than law, so a university education can reasonably reflect other interests, saving the vocational aspect for later. Blatantabuse's approach is one reason why so many lawyers find it impossible to relate to, or even communicate with, non-lawyers.

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  • What the hell's the LPC for?

    If one was to follow the fussy logic of the two posters who have come out as so anti the GDL route then surely they, with their advanced LLB understanding, would trounce the poor GDL clowns on the LPC and henceforth proove their point.

    Unfortunately for them this isn't the case: those who do the GDL achieve exactly the same results on the LPC as those who have done a 3 year law course. The fact is that law at Uni is pretty easy, the GDL isn't too tricky and if their was any disparity between the two our friends in HR would be smart enough to notice. I did the GDL route and will accept that a law degree has a greater breadth of experience but in practice the two routes have little to do with the actual 'job'. Now if you will excuse me I'm off to work on my swing- these golf course management essays don't write themselves you know!

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  • non-law first degree

    Go to the US and do a JD. Then earn USD160K base plus USD30K bonus right out of school. You will get cost of living adjustment if you work outside the US of up to USD60-80K. All in this means USD270K for a fresh grad with a JD. Forget about the stupid GDL or a LLB, JD is the way to go and you'll get paid 3 to 4 times what pathetic trainees are being paid

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  • Barristers are lawyers too!

    As I understand it, the GDL is designed to give an overview of the key areas of the law quickly, whereas the LLB is designed for in-depth study and analysis. On this understanding, I would say that the LLB would be more beneficial to a future barrister, rather than a future solicitor. Barristers require the ability to gain a deep understanding of a particular area of the law; the policy considerations underlying legislation, the principles an aspect of tort law is based upon etc, very quickly, which is something, I would say, a solicitor doesn't have to deal with as frequently. Also (and I apologise if this is incorrect) jurisprudence is a subject of enormous importance to a barrister for the reasons above, and is not available on the GDL.

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  • Re "Now Oxbridge need to reach out"

    Re: "Now Oxbridge need to reach out
    Date: 10-Mar-2009 @ 16:09
    From: Anonymous"

    What rubbish. School pupils who can't work out that you don't need to go to Oxbridge to study law surely aren't exactly what the profession is looking for... We all have the similar opportunities and people should not get special treatment.

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  • LLB Route

    Being a Second Year law student studying the LLB I am quite appalled at Tiger Woods' comments that reading law at universiy is 'pretty easy'. In comparison with my peers my degree is far more difficult and challenging, especially managing coursework, tutorial work and vac scheme applications simultaneously. I think it is offensive to all LLB students to say our degree is 'easy'. If it was perceived so by reputable law firms why would they not ask for a First Class Degree instead of a 2:1? Surely if the content is that easy and we all work hard a First should be manageable? I don't think so, not if you want to have a life. Really disrespectful of Tiger Woods.

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